The Final battle!

[manus dei]

I think it is important that we discuss what Jake suggested for the final game.

Jake's suggestion was to have the final battle for Ayos really late Saturday night and have Sunday for role-play and plot wrap-up.


There are some pros and cons for this idea that we should weight. If you have anymore post them and I will add them and we can make our decisions based on everyone's input.

Pros:
Atmospheric (Dark is scarier)
Gives a lot of time for role-play and wrap-up
More epic?
(Scott's additions)
-Flavor of the game will shine through. Dark is scarier.
- Provides more time for role-play and wrap-up.
- Added chaos from poor visual could enhance the desperation.

Cons:
Sleep deprivation
-Angry/grouchy PC/NPC conflict
- Some players may not be able to stay up straight till 6 or 7 am
Usual night fighting chaos. (Harder to keep ordered and organized in the dark.)
Usual night fighting safety concerns magnified because of the scale of the battle(Face shots and terrain hazards)
We may not be able to see what is happening clearly in the dark.
What will happen to the players that perm in the battle/ don't make it to the RP of Sunday?
(Scott's additions)
- May not be fair to others who paid to be there and need to work Monday morning.
- Even the most prepared person still has to deal with others who did not prepare as well and may hit them in unintended areas.
- The chance for escalating retaliation increases drastically the later the encounter goes.
- Weather/temperature becomes an increasing concern given the event will happen in November. Snow/Rain is always a possibility and combined with a temp below freezing...
- Adrenaline will be pumping as it is the climax to the campaign, this will always lead to poor decisions and can quickly become a safety concern.
- Players may miss out on significant aspects of the encounter because of confusion and lack of ability to see.
- Players who can't stay up will miss out on something they have worked towards for years.


I acknowledge that I have mostly Con's but that's why I'm asking all of you to voice your opinions!

[Charles Ryker]

Well, I have to admit that I'm on the fence for this one. I've always enjoyed doing things on Sunday, simply for the sake of fighting after being rested again.

That being said, this is a Lovecraftian Eldritch Horror Larp.

Everything about the setting, everything about the world really, is prompting me to support the final battle being Saturday night. I'm sure that the final battle with have to deal with a cult of some sort (there are so many floating around, one of them is bound to be a part of the final battle, right?). And the whole Zon/Cult/Darkness-That-Destroys-All thing sort of screams night time to the break of dawn.

One of the upsides to the whole thing is that if we decide to do it that way, people will know and be able to prepare for being up pretty late. The downside of course, is the fact that it's really late.

For me, the whole question boils down to the idea of tiredness vs epic.

As I said, personally, I'm still on the fence. But I'm also leaning towards letting the final battle happen on Saturday night, simply because it'll feel more awesome.

Other thoughts?

[manus dei]

One of my main concerns is that people who are tired don't fight as clean as if they were not tired. Also aggression can get out of hand with sleep deprived people. I just want to make sure what might have been an epic battle doesn't end in a fist fight or a few too many face shots.

[Enthusiastic_Emo]

I would personally be in favor of a night battle, leaving all kinds of mechanics (such as the light of dawn marking the end or turning point if the battle). Also, if opeople prepare to stay up late, that may solve most of the aggression issues. Perhaps a pre-battle briefing on both sides would help the situation as well.

[Alexei]

In my experience, even if players know that they need to be up late for things they will still be tired. Even this past weekend at Endgame, the players knew they needed to stay up for a crucial encounter and people were falling asleep on the field.

Following a late-night encounter that could in theory run until dawn, people are going to want to sleep. If you are up until dawn, you are going to want sleep and may not want to get out of bed until noon or later and by then you miss a good chunk of the day assuming most sites want you out of there by 5pm and it takes a couple hours to clean up.

You also need to give consideration to people who need to work on Monday. Wrecking a sleep schedule like that could cause problems for people in their professional lives. When ever the battle is, people are not going to want to miss it and forcing people to choose between functionality in their real lives or missing out on the climax of multi-year campaign is not fair.

I am assuming the conflict/encounter would begin around midnight and that presents horrendous obstacles for behind the scenes.
- How do you pace a possibly 5+ hour encounter so that your players and staff members are not so exhausted by the end that everyone still has enough juice to do the climax justice?
- The event will be in November. Its going to be cold during the day and possibly freezing at night. Both are safety concerns, especially if people are exerting themselves and sweating. Hypothermia comes into play as well as dehydration. And it gets even worse with snow/rain.
- Assuming there will be some adequately epic visuals in the battle, do they become less epic if people can't see them?


So to get back to and expand on Skye's list:

Pros:
-Flavor of the game will shine through. Dark is scarier.
- Provides more time for role-play and wrap-up.
- Added chaos from poor visual could enhance the desperation.

Cons:
- May not be fair to others who paid to be there and need to work Monday morning.
- Even the most prepared person still has to deal with others who did not prepare as well and may hit them in unintended areas.
- The chance for escalating retaliation increases drastically the later the encounter goes.
- Weather/temperature becomes an increasing concern given the event will happen in November. Snow/Rain is always a possibility and combined with a temp below freezing...
- Adrenaline will be pumping as it is the climax to the campaign, this will always lead to poor decisions and can quickly become a safety concern.
- Players may miss out on significant aspects of the encounter because of confusion and lack of ability to see.
- Players who can't stay up will miss out on something they have worked towards for years.


Now I know I have stopped playing Lost Eidolons, but that should not discredit any concerns I have mentioned. I have experience sub-par conclusions to campaigns and the sting of those experiences still hangs with me all these years later.

[Matt]

Just a quick note: we are not thinking about running until dawn, mostly because of the concerns presented above.
Obviously the details haven't been planned, but I believe 3-4am would probably be the latest it would go.

[Molly Mayweather]

Well, it's good to know we won't be running until dawn, as thematically appropriate as it might be. I stayed up until we saw the sun coming up at one event, and it wasn't a very good decision. Thanks for the info, Matt.

(Skye, you can add whatever sounds like something no one else has said yet.) Since plot posed the question to us on this, I'm going to assume they want to work with us on it. So if some of the cons sound solvable, it might be worth our while to make suggestions that they can take or leave. If they're really specific ones, would probably best NOT to post them here and get in touch with your favorite plot monkey directly.

I'm not going to use myself as a "healthy" example of a LARPing sleep schedule because I tend to be one of the last ones up at 3-4 AM both Fri and Sat (and there aren't many of us), sleep until about 6:30-7, then sleep off and on until I decide other people might be awake at 9-10 AM. Honestly, I'm not sure how I've survived events while hating coffee. Granted, we aren't usually doing wave battles that late at night, but I could probably handle it. I just worry about the people who will fall asleep on the field, like Scott mentioned, or have to go to bed and miss out. Let's also not forget--the more people who go to bed, the less people we have to fight, and the less our chances in battle. (Remember that fight last event when somehow almost all of our doctors/mechanics were missing randomly...?) Also, how will RP go on Sunday for those people who went to bed while their friends were out getting slaughtered/saving the world?

However, I think if people know going into the event that they will need to be awake and fighting-capable very late and in the cold, then people should be able to be responsible enough to decide if they need to take a nap in the afternoon, not stay up as late on Friday, eat more food/have something warm to eat at 2 AM, have a coffee, make sure to pack hot chocolate, put on a few more layers, get a back massage from a friend, bring handwarmers and warm packs for sore muscles, and a million other things. We all know ourselves and what we need. If we want something bad enough, like to stay up and save the world, then we will. If someone honestly can't, then perhaps our PC group can find ways for these people to contribute pre-battle. These people who won't be present should let the tactics guys know so they can fix their plans. The reality is that there are always people who aren't as responsible/prepared as they could be during any battle, late at night or not. While some things might be exacerbated by sleep-deprivation, the good news is much of that stuff can be prevented or at least toned down with some preparation.

I don't mean to be unfair to people who have to work on Monday because most times, I work on Monday. (After helping clean up the site and driving home three hours.) Working on Monday after a LARP really sucks. If a 3 AM wave battle is going to disrupt your real life, do what you've gotta do. Everyone knows real life trumps game time at all times. Let's instead figure out how to work with each other on this.

It's too bad that the field doesn't have soccer field style lighting. Whenever we have a night battle down there, I have to ask people what just happened afterward because I couldn't see any of it, especially from triage at the entrance to the field. It's a bit frustrating, but not worth complaining about because there's not much to be done about night time being dark. And even that is probably at least 65% in-character frustration. But I love watching my fighter friends pull off amazing feats of awesomeness, and it seems like the last battle should be SEEN, to an extent. Not like daytime at all, just more visible. The dark is scarier, promotes desperation, and is thematically appropriate, but maybe plot can find a creative way to light the field juuuust a bit. I have some ideas.

The cold of a November night is definitely a force to be reckoned with! Along with the prep above, what if we found a way to have some hot chocolate for people on the porch of that little shack just before the entrance to the field in the same way that we have cold water at hot events? As with all safety concerns, it's always a short walk to Monster Camp! Specific weather can be discussed when we actually know the forecast for the event. Come on guys, we did a snow in October event and still had a great time. We can make anything work.

At first, I was a bit concerned about getting off-site on time on Sunday with people sleeping in late on both sides of the team, but I think it won't be as much of a problem. After the NPCs getting the rest they rightly deserve, they won't need to be out being field pain or a wave battle, meaning there will be more hands in MC getting things packed up.

After thinking this out, I think we can really pull off a late night battle, guys, with the right amount of prep and precautions. There's my ... probably twenty cents, actually. tl;dr, Coco. lol

[Wolfman2006]

I wouldn't dream of the end of a 3 year Lovecraft inspired game to be any time OTHER than night.

Yes there are worries and cons to this. But we have ample time to prepare, and it is the season finale... I work from 6-6 on Mondays after larps... staying up late is my choice I suffer the consequences from my choice gladly. But this is also the final event, the climax. Personally I think nearly all of us are willing to make the sacrifice of braving the cold, and weariness to experience the conclusion of the campaign in the appropriate setting.

[littlebluefae]

[Deadbolt]

My input:

Pros
1) Night fights, while they may be more difficult, we are in a horror LARP. Night fights are scary. My favorite fight we've ever had was the gigantic worm fight, and I've been waiting for another fight that that's scary.
2) Some people may perm during this fight. It's more than likely an inevitability that will just add to the wrap-up on sunday. We'll have to wake up and deal with the loss of the people we had to fight against. They'll have a chance to be immortalized and made into heroes.
3) How many people will want to just pick up shortly after a huge field fight on Sunday and leave? Our characters will want/need to get the talky out of their systems.
4) Night fights are scary! WHEN WE FIGHT CTHULU... I MEAN ZHON, I WANNA BE SCARED!!!

Cons
1) Lighting: it is dark during night fights. Is there some way lights can be set up in the field?
2) Safety: it's agreed upon that night fighting is indeed a safety hazard. We know what we're getting into when we show up on the campsite, and we trust other players to keep an eye out for us to make sure we don't get too badly injured.
3) Tiredness: I've noticed that players are always up late at night, and being the final fight i know nobody will go to sleep for that. Plus many players sleep in so it takes them a long time to get up in the morning, and some players arent up until noon, meaning the final fight would have to be set later than that, and then when the fight is finally over we'll wanna talk about things (see pro 3)